Have you ever wondered what makes someone a great leader?
Joining Sarah Grynberg this week is John Kelly, CEO of Southern Cross Austereo and a profound thinker who believes in the transformative power of storytelling and philosophy. A longtime supporter of the podcast, John shares how life’s most challenging moments—including his son’s cancer diagnosis—have shaped his approach to leadership and his understanding of what truly matters.
In this deeply moving conversation, John and Sarah explore the shift from fear-based leadership to one rooted in empathy, authenticity, and connection. They discuss the wisdom philosophy brings to modern life, the strength found in vulnerability, and the immense challenges leaders face, including the emotional weight of making tough decisions like redundancies. Together, they reflect on how life’s hardships, both personal and professional, can lead to profound growth and transformation.
Let this episode inspire you to lead with integrity, reflect deeply, and navigate your own challenges with resilience and humanity, embracing the courage to make a difference both in business and in life.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Sarah:
John Kelly, welcome to a life of greatness. You are
the CEO of Southern Cross Austereo. And just to give people some
context of, you know, if you're listening from overseas or how does
this relate to Sarah to me is that my podcast is licensed to a
company called listener. Listener is owned by Southern Cross
Austereo, and I was an employee at Southern Cross Austereo for 13
years or something like that when I was a producer, which I've
talked about many a time. So John JC, we call you John Kelly. We
have been in touch many a time because you are a very deep person
and you enjoy the podcast A Life of Greatness. I do, yes, and when I
was actually going through emails, because I thought, when was the
first time that John and I got in touch with each other? And you
know what was really nice? I was going through my emails like, God,
we've had a lot of emails back and forward.
Johm:
We have we. Because when you when I listen to one of your
podcasts, something generally resonates with me and I just text you
and say, I love that quote. And yeah, there's one particular prayer
that I've used ever since I heard it on one of your Marianne
Williamson's prayer is something that really is special to me, and I
have on my desk. Yeah. Talking about.
Sarah:
Well, it's funny you say that because then I wanted to read the
first email that you ever sent to me, and I'll be honest with you, I
didn't know who you were at that time. I got the email and I was
like, hold on. Chief Operating officer, which was your old role? And
I think I said to Todd is, who is that? Who is this guy? And he's
like, you don't know JK. Like, that's I think you were his boss. You
still are. Or you know, you were then.
John:
And he's a friend too.
Sarah:
Yeah, exactly. And he said, oh that's nice. And this is how
lovely you were. You wrote hi Sarah. Just wanted to check in and say
that some of my favorite personal moments from 2020 have been
immersing myself with a life of greatness. My last big moment was
revealed in your podcast with Marianne Williamson and her prayer.
Where will you have me go? What will you have me do? What would you
have me say and to whom? I actually say that prayer every day too. I
love the narrative and these words provide and actually have just
shared these words with my senior GM team as part of my thanks
Christmas message. Anyway, it prompted me to write and thank you for
your great work. You may not get the credit of Hamish and Andy or
Howie, but for me, a life of greatness is number one. Hope you and
your family have a really joyful and safe Christmas. JC.
John:
It's so lovely. It's actually it's great you read that because it's so
nice. I'm so glad that I'm still tearing up, but I'm so glad that
I'm still using that. And it's it's, you know, you write something
like that and sometimes you put it away. Yes. But literally I've got
that. I wrote it out and it's a prompt. Every time I get to my
office, I see it there. It's one of the things I look at and yeah,
it's fantastic. I love that prayer. I think it's a really nice
piece.
Sarah:
I know, and it is a prayer that I say every day as well. Like I
have a few and that is one. It just kind of sets you. You know, it
just kind of sets the intention for the day. And, um, yeah, it's
just something beautiful. What do you do in the morning? What is
your daily routine?
John:
Yeah. Look, it's really interesting. And one of the good things
when you ask me to come and do this podcast is kind of examine what
you do a bit. Yeah. And I sent you a producer. Sort of a bit of a
piece I did to our teams probably 3 or 4 years ago in terms of, I
called it JK, a mindfulness journey. And a lot of the things I do
are I call it my toolkit, my mindfulness toolkit. So I'm a very
disciplined person. And so I think that helps with mindfulness in
many ways. So in the morning at the moment, I'll always do some
exercise in the morning. And I find for me that's that's a really
good time to just clear your head. It'll be a run, a swim, a bit of
both, whatever. But probably from a mindfulness perspective, the
most important thing I do is I walk to the train station, and on
that walk I always say, which is another prayer, which is a Sanskrit
prayer, which is om paramatman nama ata, which is glory be to the
world and start the day. But when I say that, I always picture
something like it might be a bird, it might be a flower, it might be
a raindrop, and say, that's pretty good. That's all you to say.
That's pretty good. And for me, that's just a you know, it's not a
religious thing. It's just a gratitude thing. I think how lucky. And
you can always find something on those terrible days, you can find
something and go, that's pretty good. And on the really good days
you find a lot of things. But that that would be the way I always
start my day, and it always gets me off to a good start. You know,
if I go back, I've got three kids and, you know, when I had a
difficult job at a stage in my life. And I know that you talk about
some of your times as well. And I had I had my youngest daughter,
Kate. She was about probably 12 and 13 at the time. And she said to
me, dad, can you walk to the station with me? And it's about a 15
minute walk. And from that point on to when she finished year 12, we
walked to the station. Really, even when she was cranky, even when I
was cranky, I would walk to the station together and we'd walk out
the house and you just chat. And you know, when you walk side by
side in a car, it's non-confrontational. Yeah.
Sarah:
And everyone opens up when they go for a walk. Yeah. Far more
than if you're having, like, a coffee with someone or something like
that.
John:
So that was a really special time for Kate and I and just. Yeah.
And she always I always called them call them, I'll walk with Kate.
And when she finally finished year 12, it was kind of something I
missed a little bit. But we've got a really good relationship now.
But yeah, so stuff like that is really important to me.
Sarah:
Yeah, absolutely. And you were saying before we started, you
come from a big family? Yeah. Um, so how many of you are there.
John:
In my my family, we had eight kids. Mum had six under six. Yeah,
over a journey. And there's about 30 grandchildren and stuff like
that in my own family. I've got three, three kids and a beautiful
wife in Julie. So we're very fortunate to have, you know, three
healthy kids and Julie.
Sarah:
And how was your younger years?
John:
My younger years were great. Um, you know, you know, we didn't
we an interesting situation in that, you know, we didn't have a lot,
but we all got on well. We love sport. We played together, had the
usual fights. Dad ended up starting a family business, which has
done really, really well. Some of the boys have gone into that
family business and everyone's done well. And we're very fortunate
to have, you know, a happy ecosystem of family, which is so
important in today's, you know, busy, busy world to come back to
family, whether it's a my job, your job or whatever it may be. So
yeah.
Sarah:
And you're very much into philosophy. Your wife enjoys
philosophy too. Julie, what made you want to know more about
philosophy and interested you in philosophy?
John:
Yeah. Look, when I was really young, in year ten and year 12, I
was fortunate enough to go to India for about seven weeks. Each time
I went all around India and as high as Kashmir, as low as
Trivandrum, all the way to Mumbai, all the way to Chennai, probably
as much as India as I did in Australia. And we went with a group of
about 20 young guys from my school actually, and various places
around and visiting India back in such a formative age really. And
we went to ashrams and all that type of stuff, which is pretty early
on. And so Goa before Goa's yesterday. Fascinating. Got to see meet
Mother Teresa twice. Did you? She's still alive? Yeah. Wow. Which
was fascinating. And just, you know, there's not too many people you
meet. And you feel saintly when you're actually with them. And
everyone in our group, when she spoke, she had a real reverence and
a real something about her. A real. Yeah, a real aura. In many ways
about her. So I learned a lot about Mother Teresa beyond that time.
So I guess I've always had that sort of vibe from India. And the
thing about India, even when it was very poor and poverty was
everywhere back in those days, you still had people that were happy.
And I'll never forget we had a Christmas when I was in probably 16,
in Sambalpur, which is in Orissa, and we slept on hay and they just
had rice and bananas for dinner. But it was a really happy
environment. It was a it was a Christian environment. So they
celebrated Christmas. But it's amazing. So that probably got me into
it. And then uh, The. Somewhat curiously, Julie and I saw an ad in
the local paper for a philosophy course, and it happened to be in a
place directly behind our house where we were living in.
Sarah:
Oh, wow.
John:
So we went along for about six years to a philosophy course.
It's a more a basic mindfulness course, but it was fantastic. And we
learned a lot of tools and a lot of things I still use today. So
yeah.
Sarah:
India is amazing and I've been there. I spent a bit of time
there, oh, many years ago now. But I do want to go back, I loved it.
Um, it is a place where you just find, you know, there's absolute
chaos in some areas, and then it's so serene and so spiritual in
other places. And something there's so much beauty that's there.
Right? Um, and I wonder, you know, you yourself being in India and
experiencing that, is there anything that you take with you into the
everyday?
John:
Yeah. I just I think it's just the gratitude for what you've
got. And I'm a real simple person. Simple needs like and and I think
that comes from India. You realize you don't need a lot to be happy.
You know, I think that that for me is is kind of, you know, a lot of
your a lot of the podcast listening to see the say the same thing.
Yeah. All those outside influences. That's not what makes happiness.
I think that probably is, is the which is why things like that
simple prayer in the morning and that simple highlighting of of
what's in the world and what's good about the world is, is a much
more positive way to be. So I think it's that the positivity of life
and what's good about life.
Sarah:
Yeah. A few years ago now, your son was diagnosed with cancer
and, you know, he's okay now. Thank God. Uh, but that to anyone is
obviously an unbelievably challenging time. And I can only, you
know, imagine what it would be like for it to be your child as well.
How old was he and how did you move through that time?
John:
Yeah, and it's a good story because Tim, who was our oldest son,
who was about 19 at the time and a pretty rambunctious out there 19
year old in terms of his behaviors and, you know, being a 19 year
old boy. And we we were having the trip of a lifetime, and we were
in Umbria and we were about a week into our trip. We were going away
for four weeks, and we were doing a trip around Italy, and then
we're going to do a two week cruise, and Tim had to finish his
university. So the other four of us were overseas. And we we woke up
in this fantastic, beautiful vineyard in Umbria, and I remember
going to bed saying, Julie, we're the luckiest people alive. And I
got up in the morning about 7:15 and I had three missed calls. And I
said, that's a bit strange. I said, and Julie said anything, right?
I said, yeah, look, I'll be fine, and I rang. It was a doctor, Our
local doctor at home. And he said, can you call me urgently at any
time? And he said, I've just seen Tim. I'm 99% sure he's got
Hodgkin's lymphoma. I need to speak to you. And so I rang him, and
of course he did. And he said, you need to come home straight away.
And the logic is, of course, I'm getting home, but I've just started
a holiday I've been looking for.
Sarah:
Yeah, of course.
John:
He'll be okay. No, no, come home, which I did. Now, candidly,
Tim and my relationship wasn't great. You know, up at that time, you
know, wee bit distant. Um, and I came home and we had the best week
together, just him and I, um, you know, he wasn't that poor at that
stage. He hadn't started, you know, chemotherapy and all that. And
we had a great, a great, just father son time. Um, and it's kind of
like out of everything comes gold. You know, he, he really became
part of the family unit again. And we were all really connected with
him. And he and Julie had a, you know, a fantastic relationship,
which is a very difficult time to have hyper intensive chemotherapy.
And but in a year's time he'd got through all that. And yeah, we
have a great relationship with him and you sort of wonder if that
didn't happen, then where would you be in your relationships? So I
think it's again, you know, talk about my toolkit. Taking that view
out of everything comes gold, I think is so important as things
happen to you. So yeah.
Sarah:
I wonder during that time when he's going through chemotherapy
and, you know, you're his parent, how do you stop all the negative
thoughts rushing through your head and the worst case scenarios? And
you know, that is unbelievably scary for anyone. But as a parent,
you have to hold it together for your child as well. That's
important. If they see you crumble, that's not going to be great for
them.
John:
Yeah, I think it's exactly that, Sarah. I think it's it's
focusing on the person and focusing on the moment and just being
there for them and putting your own insecurities or your own sort of
fears. Um, putting them aside and just focusing on. We're here for
Tim. That's our only focus. How can we help Tim through this? And
we'll get through this together. That's it's because you've only got
so much energy, and you want to devote it to the person going
through whatever trauma people go through. So yeah. And Julia was
sensational with that. You know, she sat next to him every day,
every time he was having his treatments and fantastic. So yeah. And
the whole family bounced around. But yeah. Look, look, I'm sure Tim
never happened to him, but, you know, here we are. And he's healthy
and, you know, living life to the fullest. So that's all you can ask
for.
Sarah:
Yeah. That's amazing. And you do learn so many things when you
come out the other side, like you said, it's you know, you don't no
one wants to go through that. But the way I suppose. And you can
speak to this, the way you look at life and realise that in an
instant everything can change. You know, you're having that
wonderful holiday. And then out of nowhere, you get this call. So
you appreciate life so much more.
John:
Yeah, you absolutely do. And you know, I often say to my kids
and my favorite all time expression, I use it all the time, I lose
it. I use a lot of phrases, but optimists make the world go round.
Pessimist. Watch it. Yeah, that's one of the things I really believe
in. I think optimistic people can change the change, the whole
chemicals in the world and really change things for good. You know,
I always remember and it's little moments and little, little events
in your life. You know, I had a fantastic Canadian CEO at channel
ten and I had actually Tim was born. And back in those days, you
know, people like me went back into the office, you know, after
Julie had had the baby some time back, a couple of hours later that.
Afternoon, almost. And a day later, the CEO, which, you know,
the CEO of a business like he hardly knew my name, I thought, and he
came into my office and sat down and said, I said, is everything all
right, Peter? And he said, I just want to say congratulations on
your first on your first newborn and congratulations. What is it?
Tell me about it. And I've gone, wow. He took the time to speak to
me about the first baby. I've always remembered that. And I've
always tried to. To be that person, to actually give out. You give
out. You never quite know that butterfly effect that may happen
across the organization. I do this thing at work, which is Friday
calls. I do five calls every Friday to one of our 1500 people and
use our five values. Our five values are our five values. Are people
out of power? We're better together. Be genuine, always curious, and
we push doors open so every one of those five values gets given to
one person. And you might be speaking to someone in Sydney, which is
where I'm based. You might be speaking to someone in Launceston, you
might be speaking to someone in Cairns. We've got 50 markets. And to
make that call and just to hear their voice and say, oh well, you
give me a call and you generally have something you want to tell
them and you never quite know what that's going to do. But it can
only be good, it can only be positive. So I think giving positive
sentiments out is so important for anyone in my role or anyone. I'm
a big believer in that.
Sarah:
As we mentioned, you are the CEO of this big media company, and
the media company has radio stations and a TV station and all the
podcasts. Um, it's not a small job. And I remember, you know, back
in the day, not whilst you were leading, um, but just people in
general. The thing was to do was like, lead with fear, like, you
know, very much the 90s and um, uh, 2000, it was like, you know, if
you're mean, keep them keen kind of thing, and they'll do more work
for you. And it was interesting because that really changed for me
when I started working on the Hamish and Andy And podcast, which is
a comedy podcast, and I was their executive producer. And I remember
thinking, these guys are the nicest people. I think I've, you know,
I've ever worked for. They are so lovely and obviously funny, so
giving. And there's no fear here. And the way that they were so
involved and kind, it made you want to do more work for them. And
when I left them, I remember thinking to myself, I will always
manage in a kind way because they taught me what it was like to be
kind and and lead by example. And I wonder how you do that and what
you think about that culture of, you know, kind of being fearful in
the way that you manage, not you personally, but people in
leadership roles.
John:
Yeah, Hamish needs to talk about them. They are wonderful
people. Yeah. They're when you go when you speak with them, they ask
you questions which, to be fair, not not all performers do. Yeah.
And they're interested as you, as you are in them. But just moving
on to my view of culture, it has changed a lot. And look, we have a
lot of stakeholders. We have shareholders, but we've got a lot of
people. We've got 1500 people and we call hearts and minds of SCA.
Right. And our whole philosophy, I really love the analogy that we
want. We want a healthy river of culture. Now, having a healthy
river of culture by its very description means you're going to have
some pollutants come in occasionally, and you've got to get rid of
those pollutants and get back to a healthy river of culture, because
it's dynamic. It's always changing. So you're always trying to add
good pieces to the river of culture and remove the bad pieces. And
positivity is one thing, but bad behaviors are no longer negotiable.
And look, you know, and you talk a lot about, you know, some of your
experiences, not good experiences on breakfast shows and other
things in the past. And it kind of comes with the territory, but it
doesn't anymore. We can't allow that to perpetuate on an ongoing
basis. But that's not to say it doesn't. It's not happening. It's
how you actually remove that and move on. And, you know, our people
and culture team do a lot of work to try and improve the outcomes
for everyone in a it's a difficult job getting up at 4:00 in the
morning and working with people that at any time, let alone when
you're having a bad day or you've been out the night before,
whatever it may be. So look, as I say, for us, it's trying to I
mentioned those values. They're really important. Like we're better
together. People are our power. My favorite ones be genuine. I think
if people are genuine and speak with their heart in their mind, then
you're going to get good results. But we're always focused, myself
and all our managers on how do we actually improve the place.
Sarah:
Yeah, it's really good to hear that because obviously, you know,
leading from integrity, which when I spoke to a few people about
you, they that was one thing that they mentioned. They mentioned a
lot of lovely things, but one of the major ones is that you lead
with integrity. And, you know, we see at a different media company
everything that's happening with Alan Jones, for example. And you
have to wonder and we don't know, he hasn't been proven guilty. So
this is all alleged. But there's a there are always people that know
about what's going on. Right. Even if you look at P Diddy or you
look at Jeffrey Epstein and that sort of stuff within those
entertainment cultures, you know, it's not like one day someone says
they did something bad and no one else knew. Like, there's a whole
team and so many people. And I feel that something's changed,
especially within Austereo, where that sort of behaviour is not
accepted. And I think maybe there was a time where things were and
not your time pushed under the carpet a little bit more.
John:
Yeah. Look, I'm not sitting here saying because I've been in
media a long time. Yeah, like I was previously in TV. I'm not
sitting here and saying, I haven't experienced that in the past or
been, uh, what's the word? Being part of that, that that
environment. Right. And, you know, 20 years ago was a very different
environment and quite a toxic environment and a very male dominated
environment, as you would well remember. Um, so, look, the past is
is not something that I think any of people that have been in media
are proud of in terms of that or you can control is the future. It's
a bit like, you know, mindfulness, right? We can only focus on the
moment and influence the future. But you know very much, you know, I
don't think it's just this organization. I think, you know, no one
had their own issues and then put out a report. Everyone looked at
that report. It was called the Intersection Report and said, okay,
that's their, um, view of their environment. Let's apply that to our
environment. And what things can we learn to improve our environment
and our culture? So I think that's really healthy because you
actually shining a light on well, they've done that. Maybe we should
add something like that in terms of, you know, we do things like a
pulse checks, which is actually got one going at the moment, which
is we ask a series of questions. And one of the questions we're
asking at the moment is, have you experienced bullying in the last
six months, and if so, have you reported? And if not, why not?
Because we need to know all that stuff in order to improve, as I
say, and get a healthy river of culture. So it's so important in
today's environment.
Sarah:
It's amazing that you're doing those things. Really. It is like
and like you said, it just makes it a more harmonious place for
people. But I want to go back to that integrity piece because I
think that is so important. And to me, living in integrity is just
one of the best things that anyone could do for themselves. And why
is it, though, for you? Such an important thing.
John:
Yeah, I guess I just have those beliefs that if you don't have
integrity, what do you really have? Yeah. What's the the inner
essence of yourself? Um, there's a saying which is integrity a bit,
but love is a natural in between. I'm a big believer in that the
natural state is to be loving, but also to have integrity. Like, you
know, it's something you've got to live by. No point saying I've got
integrity and not having it. Yeah, you've got to demonstrably
evidence that by your behaviors, by your actions, by the way you
speak, um, you know, and that's challenging sometimes when people
attack you, um, you know, publicly, privately or whatever it may be.
But I think taking the higher positioning, I think it gives you
better results personally, professionally or any part of life. Um,
yeah. Look, that's not something I'll ever change, you know? And I'd
hope that all our leaders at our place and more generally, if you
have integrity, I think you're going to go a long way and it's more
sustainable.
Sarah:
Yeah, yeah. Being a CEO of a big media company is obviously
means that you have to put out a lot. And I wonder for you, how do
you manage that work life balance? How are you able to make sure
that your inner world is strong? So then you're able to give to the
company that you look after?
John:
Yeah, I do try and segment my life a fair bit. So, you know, one
of the reasons I live in Sydney, I catch a train to work. Now I
could drive. Yeah, but I catch a train to work for two reasons. One,
it gives me my Monday walk to the station. Two, I can do some work
on the way in. But one thing I always do on the way home is I do a
meditation. Now, this might sound crazy because it's probably not
meditation, but I put my noise cancelling earbuds in and generally
do a meditation, either a mantra meditation or just, you know, one
of the guided meditations for 20 minutes. It's a station I get on at
town hall. Get off at Saint Leonard's. I know there's 20 minutes and
off I go. And that's a disconnect. So where I'm getting to is that
changes my my world from the world of work to the world of home. And
by the time I get home, I'm in a different place because I don't
have enough energy to do it at home. And Julie, I'll often come home
and she goes, oh, how did that meeting go? And I'll say, oh, it went
well. She goes, let's talk about it. I said, no, I just I can't do
that. I can't do it twice.
Yes, I can do work.
And I can do home. And she does find that a bit frustrating, but
it is what I just can't. I don't have unbounded energy, so that's
the way I do it. I segment my life that way, for better or for
worse.
Sarah:
And then you were saying before we started, we were talking
about emails and how, you know, I asked, like, if you went on a
holiday, do you always check your emails? But you have quite a good,
you know, routine with that?
John:
Yeah. Look, I'm very fortunate to have a fantastic assistant.
And I just say to her, I'm turning off on my device, my work emails.
If you need me, text me or call me. And by doing that, you're no
longer captured by that email you read in the first thing in the
morning. I wonder what's happening there. And I think by doing that,
you know, I think you're giving it's two ways you're giving yourself
a break, but you're actually empowering your other leaders back in
the office to carry on with their jobs in a in unencumbered way.
There's that great expression that as a leader, you've got to know
when to be on the dance floor, and you've got to know when to be in
the balcony watching from above, you know. And that's a that's a
dynamic activity. So at this point when I'm no longer in active, I'm
on the long way away in the balcony. And that's, that's part of, I
guess, the management style I adopt. Yeah.
Sarah:
Do you enjoy being a CEO?
John:
That's a multi-layered question. There's lots of parts I do
enjoy. Um, I don't think I'm very egocentric, which I think. No,
you're.
Sarah:
Not at all.
John:
So I think that's probably part of, you know, you know, I think
it's a hard question because a lot of parts I like the people, I
enjoy working with our people. And, you know, probably some of the,
the greatest things I get is when I speak to people and you can see
them flourish and grow and being involved and seeing some of, you
know, young leaders, more mature leaders, people that perhaps
haven't had the opportunities and giving them an opportunity and
seeing them flourish. That's the most, um, that's the most exciting
thing. I mean, look, the other thing is listener, which we've been
going for four years, which you're obviously a key part of, seeing
that grow has been amazing. So there are great parts. Some of the
other parts, you know, I don't love, um, you know, and I don't think
I'd be doing it forever, but I'm enjoying my, my stint so far. Yeah,
sort of 18 months in.
Sarah:
And I wonder for someone like you that for me, you know, from
what I know of you, you know, you are unbelievably intelligent.
You've got a huge heart. But in any leadership role and it's not
just CEO, maybe CEO, you'd have to do it less. Um, there are times
where you have to let people go and it's happening all over
Australia at the moment in the media. Yeah, all over media
especially. I wonder, especially when you have a connection with
someone, how do you manage that? Like, I know for myself I'd be like
crying in the corner for a day after thinking I feel so bad. I know
that you've obviously got a lot more experience than me in that in
that realm, but it must be hard.
John:
It's very hard. You know those people that say it's easy letting
people go? It's not. Um, you know, there's a saying strategy,
structure, people, which means you decide your strategy, then you
decide your structure. And then whatever the people outcomes are,
the people outcomes. Yeah, that's easy to say. But when you finally
get into the people part and have to tell someone that you've been
with us for 15 years, but unfortunately we've changed the way we're
doing things, and no fault of yours. But you're having to. You have
to leave us. And if you leave your friends and have to find a new
place to work, that's very hard. It's heartbreaking. You know,
perhaps I think I've got I find it harder now as a CEO than I did
when I was younger. In many ways, I think you can see in people's
faces, um, you know, particularly when I think Sia is a great place
to work and you're sort of saying you're no longer part of our
family. It's sort of it's tough. I, you know, I, I can't say it any
more than that, you know, and, you know, in recent weeks, we, like
other media companies, have made those decisions in the lead up to
Christmas. And it is heartbreaking. Um, yeah. I can't put it any
other way.
Sarah:
No, I mean, it's amazing that you're even able to say that
because I think for people that have been made redundant or have
lost their job or whatever, um, to hear that on the other side, it's
not something that comes easily, you know, and, uh, It's not. It's
always a structural thing, you know? And, um, I'm always a big
believer in if that sort of stuff happens, then there's an
opportunity for that person that's even bigger and greater, or
they're meant to go on that sort of path, like, that's that's the
way that I like to look at life.
John:
Yeah. Look. And I got some advice, you know, very early on by
the senior, uh, CEO from a previous media company in the print area,
actually, and he just said, look, John, my advice is just be direct
and honest with people and people, if they know the story and know
the circumstances, are far more resilient than you perhaps give them
credit for. And I think there's something to that. People just want
to know the truth. That's true. Don't beat around the bush. Just
tell them direct and tell them the circumstances and let them
process. You know it's going to take them time to process, but they
deserve that at a minimum. And I think there's a lot to that.
Sarah:
I wonder in your eyes, and it might be from people that have
been your leaders over the years, what do you think makes a good
leader?
John:
Yeah, yeah. Look, I think it's someone who cares. Um, number
one, um, you know, someone who's, uh, who's also inspirational, um,
in that can teach you something a bit more about something and give
you opportunities. Uh, it's someone who's also empathetic to
circumstances. I think that as businesses and leaders today versus
when I first started, people are far more attuned to what may be
happening at home or what might be happening in social circles or
other things, and you make a lot more allowances for that than
perhaps back in the old days, which you're not doing your job.
Sorry, that's not permitted. So I think that's changed a lot. Um,
you know, and, you know, the whole sort of work life balance and the
whole way we allow people to do their job in the best way that they
want to do. It has changed a lot. So I think that as well as we, we
should. People are humans and they have have things that are deal
with in in their personal lives as well. We need to get collective
outcomes. But let's get those in a, in a, in a in a collaborative
way.
Sarah:
Yeah, I know that we obviously spoke about earlier that you love
philosophy and you love a fable. Um, I do too. Do you have one? Do
you have a favorite one that you'd like to share?
John:
Well, I do, um, you know, my favorite all time philosophy of
fable parable is called ba dum, ba dum. Um, and it's a story. I
won't read it out. I'll just paraphrase the story. And it's a story
about about a man in a brick hut, and he's about to go to sleep, and
he hears this noise coming from the distance. And as it turns out,
it's his. It's his uncle. And his uncle approaches the the hut and
says, um, your father's dying tonight. Your father will die tonight
and you need to come and visit him. And the man said, but my father
is ten kilometres away, and it's dark. How can I possibly go and
visit him? I'm afraid of the dark. I it's not something I can do.
And there's this wailing between them and fighting between them. And
a wise man walks past. And the wise man comes in and he's holding a
lantern. And he says to the, to the man. Take this lantern. Take it
in front of you. Walk one step and walk another step. And it will
guide the way forward. And that the Sanskrit for that is ba dum ba
dum. And I just love that imagery, because I can see the man and his
whole influence. It's a bit like I come back to the start with, you
know, when Tim got diagnosed, it's just take that first step. And I
use that a lot with our people. So often people say to me, BA dum,
ba dum j k. And I say, yeah, BA dum ba dum. Just take a step. And so
I love that because you can use it in any circumstance. And
sometimes things seem so large and so difficult. But if you take
that first step it gets easier gradually. You're getting closer to
the journey. So that's why it's my favorite story, because, you
know, as I say, you can use it everywhere. I use whenever I do, um,
uh, town halls or team meets. I always finish with a phrase which is
on we go, which is kind of ba dum, ba dum. It's on we go. Let's take
a step. So that's my favorite story. Yeah.
Sarah:
S2: When you reflect on your work career, I wonder, and it can be
through anywhere that you've worked, is there a moment that sticks
out to you that you just, you know, felt like that is amazing, like
I am, you know, it could be some advice that someone gave you or
something that you did or was there a moment Where? Yeah. Something
seemed a bit in awe for you.
John:
Yeah. You know, there's lots of moments, but the one in my whole
work life thus far, which might sound strange, but it was almost
like we were talking before about special moments when you get this
sort of aura feel and wow, this is amazing. And it was the first
Australian idol. This sounds weird, right? But Australian Idol opera
house. It was a beautiful Thursday night, I think. Um, we channel
ten had the rights and I was working with channel ten at the time. I
was taking a whole lot of people as guests and investors and other
things to the event. It was in it was in the opera house, and we're
in the concert hall. Uh, and just the and I've got to say, idol at
that time was phenomenal.
Sarah:
Oh, it was phenomenal.
John:
3.8 million Australians watching it, which is, you know, amazing
in terms of the TV audience, but just the vibe when, you know, Guy
Sebastian sang, you know, angels brought me here. It was like
nothing. And it was a culmination for that time for channel ten,
because we were a bit of a we were always seen as the third network.
And at that point in time, we were riding high and going wonderfully
well. And yeah, it's those little moments in life when you look back
and go, wow, that was a seminal moment for me and for the company
and all the rest of it. So I think it's those type of moments when
you just and look, we're having our own moments now with listener
that it's coming from strength to strength, and it's great seeing
your podcast. You know, you mentioned Mark Howard and Howie games
and Hamish and Andy and you know, a whole range of people got the
imperfects coming on board. It's it's really exciting times. So
different things for different strokes. But yeah. And look probably
the other things I would always say is that when I meet with our,
our people and when I have one on ones with people or have sessions
when I tell stories or whatever, and just getting that feedback and
that vibe I really love. Yeah.
Sarah:
I wonder what is some of the best advice that you have ever been
given?
John:
What are some of the best advice? Look. I think it probably
comes back to, um, being yourself. So we mentioned toddlers. Um, I
had to. So I've been a CEO for a year and a half and probably two
months in, I had to do this major speech, and it was about 150
people in the room. It was about listening. We had advertising
agencies there. We had celebrities who had politicians, and I wanted
to be perfect. I want it to be, you know, really good at it. And I
did all my cards. I wrote all the, the notes and I was it was a
great speech, really pleased with it. So I did it and I felt really
flat like I got to the end of it. I didn't say a word wrong. Yeah,
but got to the end of it. And I walked off stage and totters, who's,
uh, head of podcasting here at listener, said to me, what did you do
that for? And I said, Sit. What do you mean? It was a great speech.
What are you talking about? He said no, it wasn't. You weren't
yourself, Jake. And I said, you're right, I wasn't myself from that
moment on, I never had ever used one more card. Wow. I just do it,
you know? I know what I'm going to say. And I have no confidence in
my own being that I can communicate effectively. So being yourself
and just saying it the way it is, that means you're not going to be
perfect. Your words aren't going to come out the right way all the
time. But at least people know you're trying and trying and it's
you, not someone's written that speech for you. So that's kind of
probably for me, really important because I like being myself. Yeah,
that's great advice.
Sarah:
What is something that you wish for yourself?
John:
Yeah, I just wish that I continued for myself. I wish clearly
happiness for my family and friends, but for myself personally, it's
just continuing to to focus on the on the toolkit of mindfulness and
philosophy and staying with those, because I think if I stay with
those, I'm good for myself, I'm good for other people. And that
positive energy I can give out, as I say, hopefully has a butterfly
effect on others. Um, so that's, you know, and I like imparting that
because I, you know, I always say whenever you're praising someone
or giving someone some someone some advice, it's two way you
actually feel good about it. Yeah. Particularly if that person grabs
that and moves forward with that. So yeah, I would say that's what I
want for myself.
Sarah:
Do you have a favorite prayer or saying or mantra?
John:
Yeah. Look it is that what would you where would you have me go?
What would you have me to do? What would you have to say and to
whom? Because that to me is an orientation. Each day it really says,
yeah, it really says, I've got to go and do this today for that
person. You know, there's a there's another thing I always use,
which is which is not a prayer so much, but I think it's a really
important one, which is always meet someone for the first time. Um,
you know, you have these preconceptions that that uncle or that
particular person or that investor, they're very difficult. And it's
going to be a hard conversation. If you go in with that attitude,
you know, it's going to be a hard conversation and it's not going to
be good. If you go in for the first time and meet someone in a
really fresh way, it's amazing. It's amazing the difference that
makes. So yeah, that's not a prayer, but it's a a thing I do. Yeah.
Sarah:
What is something that you are still working on or, you know,
kind of you still find challenging?
John:
I think the from look in a philosophy
way. Um, I think just being someone that that can continue to learn,
Um, that sort of being in the moment and not being captured by the
past or the future. And I think I'm not on my own there. I think
many people find that circling mind, um, can capture you. I think
I'm good most times, but I would love a button you could just press
to say I'm in this moment and all that stuff go away. Um, because I
think that would be a much more productive place to be. So that that
for me, you know, right here, right now, if I'm walking along Manly
Beach, we've got a unit and and I'm looking at the water and looking
at the ocean. Um, fantastic. But if I get captured by those thoughts
about what I'm doing next week or what happened last week, yeah,
that frustrates me. So I'd love to have that push button. Yeah.
Sarah:
And I mean, as you know, that takes time and the meditation
helps with that. But we're forever bringing our thoughts back. But
the biggest thing to that is awareness, knowing that you're even
doing it, which you know. So yeah, you're halfway there anyway. I
wonder, have you had a great mystical experience that you can talk
about?
John:
No, I don't think I've had. I wouldn't put it like that. Yeah. I
think mystical experience is probably more about nature for me. I
think a lot of people say that to you. And, you know, for me, it's
often snorkeling. I find that a mystical experience because you're
literally alone. You're literally looking at different things in the
ocean and you're amazed by what you see. And it's such a personal
thing. You know, I am a I'm a believer in in a greater being. That's
something I believe in. So and I and I do often find that in nature
in terms of what you see around you, which is why I do that morning
observation, for want of a better but no mystery in terms of
mysticism, I wouldn't say like that. It's more just a yes
observation. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah:
And our final question what is a life of greatness to you?
John:
It's it's it's channeled optimism. That's what it is. It's
actually trying to express that optimism and making a purposeful
difference to the environment around you. Um, you know, I'm not
saying, you know, for me, life of greatness, it's always a journey
to try and be as good as you possibly can be. It's another another
term beyond that. But I think you can if you can be channeling this
optimistic streak that I have, trying to encourage people and
improve people in your environment and improve yourself, that's the
life of greatness.
Sarah:
I have to tell you, I think it was probably around 13 years ago
when I got the job at SCA. To me at that time, and I was working in
activation and, you know, I hadn't even started being a producer
yet. I remember that that was one of the best days in my life, and I
hadn't had kids yet. Um, and it was just a feeling like, wow. Like
I'm home. Like, this is, this is where I've always wanted to be. And
you know, my journey at sea has been nothing but positive. And I
worked at a lot of work places before that. And I have to say that
it really is a phenomenal workplace. And now to be doing my own
thing, but still have my podcast as part of the family is a really
super amazing experience. So, you know, you have added to that so
much and I my book comes out in March. I don't know if, you know, I
was writing a book, but I have a book that will be published in
March and in the acknowledgements section, there is a bit there for
you that says, you know, thank you for always championing the
podcast and and sending me well wishes. So it's been an absolute
pleasure to talk to you today.
John:
I love doing it, Sarah, and congratulations on all you're doing
and all the people you speak to. They always finish by saying, this
has been an amazing conversation and I can add to that. It's been a
fantastic experience. Thank you, thank you so much. That was wonderful.
Purchase Sarah's book: Living A Life Of Greatness here.
Watch A Life of Greatness Episodes On Youtube here.
Purchase Sarah's Meditations here.
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